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Hi, girls! I have been looking over the final and have not pinpointed the "moral equivalent of religion" when talking about the SAT. What are your thoughts?

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Deanna Dunn


Sun Dec 05, 2004 4:04 pm
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I still don't like how this question, or the title of that section of the book, is worded, because religion already is moral, and it doesn't need a moral equivalent, right? It should say, "..the equivalent of moral religion", right? Anyway, I think there is some significance in the fact that The Big Test starts out in the first ch. in the Episcopal Church. I think that, in Lemann's mind, just like people who choose religion are promoted to an elite group of believers who will have access to heaven and other societal favors, so is scoring well on the SAT a way of elevating one's self to an elite level of priveledge and order. On page 6, it says that Conant assumed, in fact, that picking a new elite in just the right way would enhance democracy and justice automatically. I believe that Lemann wanted to show that the people of power in this era, whether they be professors, eugenicists, etc. thought that a test such as the SAT would truly put everyone in their socially acceptable and moral place.

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Betsy Rosenbalm


Sun Dec 05, 2004 4:29 pm
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I went online also and have found a little info about the quote. I am hoping that can shed some light on the topic for me. I haven't printed the whole thing, but here is a little piece of it...

You wrote in your diary once, "What I hope to see established is the moral equivalent of religion. But based on reason and science, rather than on sentiments and tradition." What did you mean by that?
I think I always thought in terms of reason, and not religion. Even though my father was a minister and a remarkably fine person, and I was religious in my early years. I still think religion has caused about as much problem in the world in the wars and things as they do good.

But you had a faith in reason.
Yeah. But I don't know how that applies to values and various sorts of things.

But what about an actual faith in testing?
Testing is only a better way of getting information about somebody than otherwise--interviews or school records. So, I mean I'm not a person who goes around with "testing is the answer to all problems," by any manner of means.
My attitude was always that the tests were useful and very helpful, but they weren't everything. You had to take into account the school record, or whatever other records you had in making any decisions, so that I'm I guess a bit unhappy with the uses to which some colleges, or some institutions use this.


This was from an interview with Lemann. So I plan to print the rest and make some sense of it.

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Deanna Dunn


Sun Dec 05, 2004 4:34 pm
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I combed through the book yesterday until I found the exact quote on pg. 69. The way the paragraph reads, it seems like he is referring more to the IQ test. I think he is trying to find a new way to organize society abd testing is a way to do that. He doesn't like "religion" because it isn't based on science. Check out pg 68-69 and see what you think.

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Ginger Stinson


Sun Dec 05, 2004 4:39 pm
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Well, If Lemann doesn't believe in the test as the moral equaivalent to religion, then maybe he thinks the men he was writing about did. Maybe he wrote the book to show how these men put so much faith in this test, as much as they would put in God, to determine the fate of young students and servicemen. I assume that he disagrees with the emphasis they put on the test due to his quote, and he thinks that a student's whole school record should be reviewed before being accepted into college--not just their test scores. Is that what we should get from those quotes and commentaries?

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Betsy Rosenbalm


Sun Dec 05, 2004 4:45 pm
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OK, Ginger and Deanna, the quote on page 69 makes sense now that I see that it belongs to Chauncey and not Lemann. I was confused, but now I understand. So, should we apply these ideas about the IQ test to the SAT? No matter what test it is referring to , the test was ultimately meant to change and improve society with respect the scientific knowledge of man, right?

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Betsy Rosenbalm


Sun Dec 05, 2004 4:54 pm
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After looking at page 69, I had this thought. Was the analogy between ETS and the SAT just like religion and morals? Sort of like once the intelligence test had gained ground, then all the world would view it as the end all be all of testing similar to people going to the religion(churches) to gain a good grasp on morals?

I think I'm going in circles here...help!

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Deanna Dunn


Sun Dec 05, 2004 4:59 pm
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I think so. On pg 68 it says that "he (Chauncey) wanted moral principles to be in place, and he wanted to be sure they rested on a firm scientific base, as hadn't been available before." Testing gave them the scientific base - right?

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Ginger Stinson


Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:03 pm
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By the way, I think I have seen the light! I think the moral part of this quote refers to the fact that Chauncey believed that the system of testing should not be derived from ethical priciples which stem from religion, but more from a study of man and society. However, he still wanted to make sure that ethics and morals were reintroduced later so that the testing process would not simply be based on just data.

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Betsy Rosenbalm


Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:08 pm
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I think that I'm getting it. Betsy, do you think we are on the right track? In order for there to be a 'moral equivalent of religion' in the testing realm, there had/has to be a scientific base in which they base it all on. Thanks, girls!

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Deanna Dunn


Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:08 pm
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I think we've got it. Morals + scientific research on man and society = perfect test that will put everyone in their place. Am I right?

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Betsy Rosenbalm


Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:13 pm
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If you look at the rest of the "moral equivalent of religion" quote it says that it is to be based on reason and science rather than sentiment and tradition. This made me wonder if he may have been referring to those who went college or gained admission to an elite school based on one's last name. By using testing, some may have been admitted that had the brains=good test score, rather than the family heritage or the coveted last name (sentiment & tradition). This would seem more fair. Could this be tied in in any way???

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Ginger Stinson


Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:19 pm
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Yea! One down...8 to go!

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Deanna Dunn


Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:21 pm
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Now, on to Ishmael.... why would he say that we invented the SAT? To kill each other off? To show how we are more superior than any other creation? To show our superiority among each other?
On page 146, it says that:
Quote:
The world for them (the takers) is enemy territory, and they live in it like an army of occupation, alienated and isolated by their extraordinary specialness.
Is that what we do with the SAT--try to alienate ourselves?

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Betsy Rosenbalm


Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:25 pm
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Back to SAT. Ishmael may say it was invented so that there was some sort of way to weed through the Takers and Leavers. Those who are intelligent enough to make a difference and live for a cause and those who only do the hurtful things to our existences. Undoubtedly, he would turn it so it would give the reader some great insight into a new understanding that was never thought of. So, I think to be a separting instrument. ??

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Deanna Dunn


Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:32 pm
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Good points! I will add more to this subject strand, and others, as I continue my studies of these texts throughout the week! I'm full from all of the food for thought, though! :wink:

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Betsy Rosenbalm


Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:46 pm
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On page 86, Ishmael is prompting a discussion about what the prophets were trying to accomplish. They were trying to straighten us out and tell us how to live. On page 87 he says "Mother Culture says it's possible to have certain knowledge about things like atoms and space travel and genes, but there's no such thing as certain knowledge about how people should live." Skip to pg. 88 and he states "Considering the dact that this is by far the most important problem mankind has to solve (how to live) - you'd thinkk there would be a whole branch of science devoted to it" It's almost seems as if Ishmael views higher education as we see it as trivial. With this in mind, he may feel that the SAT was invented to as a means to give power to a certain group. I agree with you girls that it is merely a way to separate society.

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Ginger Stinson


Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:17 pm
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Hi girls. I thought that i would butt in on your wonderful conversation. When I was talking with some of the other girls, we also talked about how Ishmael would think that the SAT was just another thing that humans created to maintain power and control. The SAT was just another way for the Takers to take even more. I think Ginger mentioned this in her last post when she talked about one group maintaining power over the rest.

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Amie Brock
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Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:40 pm
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