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 Remember Mai Lai Video- Saying No to Authority 
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After watching the video yesterday in class, and discussing whether or not you would be able to say no to an authoritative figure, especially in an uncomfortable situation. I agree with the statements made in class saying that such a thing is "easier said then done". I know personally I was outraged during the video watching these men kill innocent victims in Vietnam, and was saying to myself how could they do that?? I would never do that! I would die myself before killing someone else! Then I was also very one sided when Dr Turner gave the class the principle scenario. Thinking to myself, I would just say no I cant do that! Who cares if I lose my job, I don't want to be working for a principle with such an attitude anyways!
Although, then after sitting back and thinking for a little bit I quickly realized such a situation would not be solved with such simplicity. What would I really do when facing a do or die situation?? Therefore, I agree that you never know what you are going to do in such a situation. I also agree with the point made in class that you have to sit back tell yourself to do what you know is right, and all will work out. It may not be easy, but by sticking to who you are and your true beliefs things will all come together in the end.

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katielewis


Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:47 am
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One comment from the video that really stood out in my mind was when the solider kept saying “a lot of people were doing it.â€

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Tracy Gardo


Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:51 am
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The reading that was due on 9/2 was titled "Why Johnny Can't Disobey." I wonder now, after reading this article and watching the documentary on Tuesday, why do we like conformity? Schools and the military have many similarities. The majority of the individuals who take part in these institutions are not ones of authority. The authoritative roles belong to very few individuals. We are taught to trust our superiors, whether they are military leaders or our teachers. The intelligence who is partly responsible for the Mylai massacre gave the soldiers false information which led to a devastating end. When we trust our teachers to inform us of the correct information rarely do we check with other resources to confirm their statements’. When a teacher is questioned by a student, who believes the educator is incorrect, most teachers do not accept the information with great care and consideration. The teacher often becomes defensive because their Truth is now in questioning. As a future leader and/or educator I wonder: will I shoot my students down when they question my Truth or authority? Will I consider them and treat my students as educated individuals who have valuable points of view, or will I consider them insubordinate?

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Lianna Denise Beard


Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:45 am
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Lianna, I always enjoy your take on things. It almost always makes me think. I hope that as a future educator I am willing to learn from my students, just as much as they are willing to learn from me. I hope that I can find a good balance, where it is understood that I am the teacher, but that I am open to discussion. I think the best teachers respond to students this way, but I also think that it is sometimes hard to find the balance--explaining why we are always needing more "good" teachers.

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Mandi McGaha


Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:49 pm
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I agree with both Lianna and Mandi about the way teachers should respond to their students' questions. I think we have all experienced teachers who are open to students' questions and teachers who are not. And I think that most of us would agree that teachers who listen to their students' concerns are much more effective educators. The one teacher that I admire more than any other was my high school geometry teacher. He always listened to and embraced his students' thoughts. This made it easier for the students to ask questions in class. I can only hope that I will create this same atmosphere in my own classroom.

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Kimberly Smith

"In a completely rational society, the best of us would be teachers and the rest of us would have to settle for something else."
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Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:51 pm
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I agree with Kimberly about how a teacher who listens to his/her students is much more effective in teaching, because the teacher then sees another point of view that s/he may not have thought about before. Since it is not always just the teacher's opinion, the students learn much more because they are getting much more out of the subject than originally thought. I agree with Lianna in asking ourselves these questions, just like I agree with asking the question about the principal situation to ourselves. These questions make people think about what they "could" do, but not necessarily what they "will" do. Thinking about questions such as these at an early stage may help you if these situations happen to occur, because then it may be possible to think back on what your answers were to these questions and then be able to apply it to the situation at hand.

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Kelly York


Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:03 pm
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Although the man in "Remembering Mai Lai"'s defenses for his actions were rather weakly supported; it is far more complex of a situation than that of a principle threatening to fire you due to a lack of going along with his/her plans on firing a collegue. They both require a decision of whether to agree or disagree with an authority figure; however if you disobey the principle, the principle can not leagally kill you for doing so. In Vietnam disobediant officiers/enlisteds were considered incompetent and/or reckless. Those who were considered as such were killed. If you question your orders you are considered insubordinant, afterwhich you are given an article 15 or you will be incarcerated due to the disobedience of a direct order, unless you can show whether the order is illegal. It would take several weeks to prove that the order is illegal. In the middle of an ongoing war, you can not just stand up and walk off in order to collect evidence to prove that an order is illegal. This would have to go through a military court, which is over 2000 miles away. Given travel time, communication lags, the time it takes to go through the pentagon, JAG, JSOC, and the lag due to the fact they were in the middle of a combat where the enemy looks exactly like civilians, and are not following any set of rules, it is nearly impossible to prove that the order is illegal in a timley fashion. I am not agreeing with the actions that took place in Mai Lai; nor am I condoning the mass conformity of the school populas. However, I am stating that just "one person questioning the orders of a superior officer" is more complicated than just saying no. There is a lot of administrative paper work, not to mention the fact you could lose more than just your job.

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Jennifer Nicole Redmond


Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:06 pm
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Jennifer, you seem very informed about military procedure for following orders. Given what little I know about the military it seems to me that the system is built so that it is very difficult not to follow orders. I have basically assumed that starting one day one the training is geared toward doing what you are told to and doing it when you are told. Generally this is not a bad thing. I believe it's how the military and schools accomplish multitasks from large numbers of individuals. The problem occurs when the things we are ordered to do are wrong. Most of us are so accustomed to following directions and placing trust in our superiors that we raise very little resistance.

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Thomas Lloyd Walker


Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:16 am
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Well said, Jennifer. Although I'd like to say I'd never agree to hurt or kill anyone, when you're under pressure, a "no" answer doesn't become that simple. The discussions and movies remind me of the children who were shot to death for "standing up" for their Christian faith. I admire these individuals obedience to God and their faith. I wouldn't live if I stood up for my beliefs, but I couldn't live with myself if I didn't stand up for my beliefs. It's extremely difficult to be that one person who stands up and says no. Going against the grain is hard. Like the article said, it's easy to conform despite knowing the right answer. I know what I'd like to do, but when "everyone else is doing it" and you're life's at stake, I'd probably slip into the routine of being mindlessly obedient.

I could tell from the expressions and emotions of the men from the movie, that they were all good men at heart and were extremely remorse and upset with themselves for what they had done. I don't believe these were crazy men. They simply got put in the trap of being obedient.

This is why it's important that we, as teachers strive to be a good influence on our kids. We need to allow them to be different, to be individuals. Include lessons that have gray areas where answers aren't always yes and no, right and wrong. This is also why higher level thinking and Blooms Taxonomy is important. In a sense, this is where we as teachers can squeeze in the hidden curriculum, to allow our classroom to be a little more open and free. Although the NC school system is structured in a particular way that stifles our freedom, we, as teachers still have the power to make a few choices such as whether to test our students on rote facts and basic knowledge or to allow sponitnuity and crativity by evalauing them at the highest degree.

We must learn from the past and strive to do better.

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Heather Lynn Rulifson


Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:43 am
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I agree with the fact that the military makes it next to impossible to not follow orders. I could relate to what Heather said in the fact that I simply could not live with myself if I did not stand up for what I believe in, and it's probably one of the hardest things in the world to go against the majority. Like many have said, the men in the documentary were good men at heart, and regreted what they had done. They kept saying that they were "programmed" by their superiors and that when they were given these orders they just went on with it not really coming to terms with the fact that they were going to be responsible for taking the lives of many people.

Much like superior officers and their influence on their soldiers, we as teachers will have similar authority and influences on our children. Now that I'm grown, I can still remember back to elementary school and the teachers that affected me in positive and negative ways. We need to teach children that it's more than ok to have a different opinion, to be an independant thinker, and to stand up for what they feel is right. The more I've continued my education, the more I see how much pressure is put on the educator. We are responsible for touching so many young lives.

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Maria Parker


Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:01 am
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Along with what many of you have said, I also feel that by being put in a "lose-lose situation" along with the pressure of the military would make you do things you normally wouldn't do. I know of some friends parents as well as my own family members who were in the Vietnam war. Some came back changed forever, while others moved past it all. Either way, they were effected and changed. I have also been around friends and family who have gone into the military, all who have which come back from training or war, to feel proud to have served their country. While I have a great respect for our military, I do feel that they train our men and women to feel that the only way to approach an enemy is to kill. I found it amazing when a friend of mine came back from Marine training and proudly said " I am now a killing machine!" When I heard that, something inside me shuddered a bit because I couldn't comprehend killing another human being. But, much like in the "Remembering Mai Lai" video, I don't feel that these men wanted to kill, but were put in such situations as to either kill or be killed. I agree that those men didn't appear to be heartless, killing machines and were honest men. Could it be that our military "brainwashes" our men and women to feel a certain way? Or is it the fact that obedience (much like in schools) is truly forced into their heads as the only option? I'm not very imformed on our military and once again, truly have a respect for those in our military, but I do wonder sometimes why or how our military is trained to feel the way that they do.

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Kristen Bumgarner


Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:05 am
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Today's military is not the same as it was in the late 60's. Granted soldiers still take orders from higher ranking officers, I feel that those authoritative figures have better intelligence about situations dealing with war. Soldiers are not trained to be so calld "killers" as they were 40 years ago. Today's soldier is the future of our country and with that comes certain responesibilities. A soldier is a reflection of a country, how they act and carry themselves tells a lot about the country in which they are from.

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Cory L. Rycroft


Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:25 am
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The military in the 1960's was quiet different than our military today. Our troops are of course still trained to fight, but also they are taught to go in and do what can be done with as little blood shed to take place as possible. I do however feel so sorry for the men who were wrongly informed and had to participate in that awful day in Mai Lai. Somehow the 'intelligence' should have been able to double check to be sure that they weren't making a mistake. I just don't understand how they could be so wrong about something so huge. When the men doing the commentary interviewed the woman that survived I just felt so deeply for her. I can never imagine how life would go on to loose practically everything you had worked your whole life for and in a matter of minutes to have it all gone; especially one's family.

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Casey Davis


Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:18 pm
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Ms. Turner asked in class what our initial reaction was to the video and all I could think was that this is one of thousands maybe millions of incidents that is followed with the "how could a human do this?" answer. Our world is so full of massacres, holocausts, and genocides, there has so be an answer for this answer. For all I know somewhere in Africa there could be something like Mai Lai going on right now. War and pillage and "sacking" of villages have been happening since war was a concept. Is humanity flawed because of these "human" traits? Or are these kinds of catastrophic, unthinkable acts what defines what being human is? We can't safely say that we would never be apart of assisting in a massacre or genocide but but any human in the right circumstances and nobody can predict their own actions. I think that that might be the point that Ms. Turner was getting across.

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~Natalie Wolfe


Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:49 pm
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The thing I find most interesting about our discussions on the human condition is that it seems that there are two innate human conditions that are very contradictory within all of us: a selfishness in which we put ourselves before others and yet some code of ethics. We spoke in one class about how it is instilled in us from the very beginning to "do good" and there is a yearning to do well and gain acceptance from others. However, being selfish at the same time seems to completely contradict the "rules" of our code of ethics. For example, the notion that one would put themselves in danger to save a child who is about to get hit by a car and the fight to survive in a life or death situation seem to both be human instincts but are too opposite reactions.

I think the fact that we are all conflicted with the questions that have risen in class about Mylai and other situations only prove that human beings are an incredibly complex species. There is nothing about the human condition that is in black and white. We all live in a "gray" world, where there are always two sides of a story and always so many different ways to look at one situation. At the same time that this makes things so complicated, it also makes things interesting and creates new ideas and opinions in us. I have left each of our classes questioning my own opinions on things. After I hear someone else's take on a situation, I start to reconsider my prior beliefs and rethink a lot of things. I think this is so important to our growth at humans.

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Emily Fox :)


Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:41 pm
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I agree a lot with what Emily says. The human race is so very complex, that this is all really hard to understand. That "gray" area, where we as observers are essentially blind, is the part that makes this all confusing. I think that as future educators, and people that are going to be influencing student's lives, we need to step back and take a clear look at everything that we have been discussing/watching.

Watching the movies on Mylai and the Milgram experiement was a very valuable thing. I know that my first reaction was, "how the heck can these people, as good men and human beings, do those horrible things?". But then we started talking about that "gray" area. We weren't there, we weren't in that situation at that time and place. So it is hard for us to discern really what we would have done. I would like to say that I wouldn't have killed any innocent people at Myali, or that I wouldn't have shocked the "hypothetical learner", but who knows. I do strongly believe that those men in Mylai were actually good people, they were just people caught in a situation where they weren't in complete power to do what they thought was right. I do, however, think that the Commander of Charlie Company who gave the orders has no right to be defended. Men like that want to be in power, and when given the chance, they almost get a "rush" (so you could say) off of things like what happened at Mylai. The soldiers who spoke seemed to have remorse, while he defended himself, saying he was protecting the soldiers.

The situations in the Mylai video and the Milgram experiment have really made me rethink things. I feel like my beliefs and ethics are already being challenged. I'm actually having to think, "what would I do?", and that's an extremely hard to comprehend. This class is really making me re consider stuff, I love it!

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Paige Kathleen Colbath


Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:46 pm
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The Mai Lai video was very disturbing to me. It was just really hard to take that those gentlemen could do that. I mean what kind of training is the army doing for those men to just not care that they are killing innocent women and children? (and i am not against the army/military at all) I understand that when you have a job to get done then they are trained to do it but when it conflicts with your morals and values you think they would have stopped and thought about what they were doing. I also found the story about the guards and the prisoners very strange. It is amazing to me that people would do that to each other. Here are people that may or may not know each other and they are seriously hurting one another. And whats even stranger to me is that they are acting more or less, they werent even real guards or prisoners. The past couple of classes have just amazed me because its hard to believe that people can be controlled the way that all of these people were.

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Kristen P. Helton


Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:02 pm
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As we have seen in class it does not seem to matter what social status, education level, or race of a person it seems that anyone is capable of the most disturbing acts if placed in a situation where it seems there is no way out. It was brought up in class today about the Germans that went to work day after day to make sure that Nazi German ran so smoothly that millions lost their lives. Those that made sure the trains were on time where doing a job that indirectly lead to the deaths of most of the passengers. Why would these normal German citizens, ones who only wanted to do their job, get paid, and go home to their families? Most said fear of what would happen to them or their families. They knew they would suffer the same fate that the Jews did.
Yet how could soldiers from any nation carry out orders like those given at Mai Lai or in Nazi German? From what I have found from studying history is that soldiers will disconnect themselves from the situation they are in and let training take over or the instinct to survive. Or others justify what they are doing by turning their enemy into a vile and evil monster that has to be killed before it hurts anyone. However, I feel Thomas Hardy best sums up the struggles of most soldiers in his poem The Man He Killed.


Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:58 pm
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Natalie said, "For all I know somewhere in Africa there could be something like Mai Lai going on right now. War and pillage and "sacking" of villages have been happening since war was a concept."

Unfortunately you are probably right. This summer I took a Young Adult Literature class and I was assigned to read the book A Long Way Gone: Memiors of a Boy Soldier by Ishmael Beah. He was born in 1980 in Sierra Leone and by the time that he was 13 he was in the military fighting the rebels in his country. And these rebels were killing everyone in the villages that they went through, burning and destroying everything as they went. He and the other boys he fought with, one as young as seven years old, were also forced to take drugs, specifically marijuana and cocaine.

As we were watching the Mai Lai video I couldn't help but think of Beah's book. If you have time, it is a very interesting read and very much worth the time. Here is a link to the website:

http://www.alongwaygone.com/index.html

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Erin Painter


Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:08 am
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This is such a difficult subject to discuss. Humans are such interesting creatures who are also incredibly unpredictable. I know that I would like to believe that I would say no to the commanding officer, or the principal, or the experiment leader. But I honestly can't say what I would do without being confronted with that situation. I believe humans to be, in a way, inherently selfish, but I also see the good in human kind. Therefore, if I am being hypothetical, I have to split these situations up completely separately. As for the situation in Mai Lai, it seems to me that what happened there was indeed a massacre. If the intelligence had been correct in this case, then following the orders would not have been as large of an issue. However, there was much more to this situation than following orders. Women and children were not only killed, but some were raped, and completely mutilated. These acts were not within the realms of following orders, and therefore, I can honestly say that I would not have gone above and beyond the call of duty in this way. As for the principal, I can honestly say that this is an easier situation for me. I am a strong advocate for human rights and I also consider myself an ally for the GLBT population. I have been brought up in a world to accept people regardless of race, sex, gender, sexual orientation, religion, and so forth. and in so doing, I have had the chance to meet many people and see many points of view. I am completely for equality in this matter. In a polite way, I would have told this principal that it is not in my job description to put someone else's job in danger or to be a spy, and therefore, in this instance he/she would be on their own. If it meant my job, in this case, I truly believe that I could walk away. In the third situation, if there were no reason why I should have had to stay in the experiment, if my free will were not in some way taken from me by being a part of the experiment, I would walk away. However, if I for one second believed that some other force was holding me there, such as a government agency or other entity, I can't give an honest answer as to what i would do. I think my answers to these situations are a good example to the unpredictable nature of humans, especially when confronted with things that they don't believe they can always control. I don't think that any answers we may give make us bad people, because I don't think that we are being malicious or evil necessarily in our intent. If you do what you think is right, in the end it will most likely work out.

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Brynne Pulver, Music Education/Vocal Performance


Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:27 pm
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